When to Adopt a New Framework


When to Adopt a New Framework

Enabling the Team

People love to chase what's shiny and new - but everything is a tradeoff. A new framework might solve some of your existing problems, but it might have unintended consequences. How do you know when it's worth the time and investment to switch, or whether it's safer to stick with what you know.

Teresa Cain

Teresa Cain, Director, Product Management & UX Design,Trevipay

Amanda Gelb

Amanda Gelb, Research Manager & Area Lead,Asana

uh new Frameworks are super exciting but

depending on the needs of your org it

may vary so we have a wonderful panel of

Amanda Alex Teresa and and Ryan coming

on stage so um I think we're ready so

I'll go ahead and welcome give them a

round of applause


hi everyone good afternoon uh Frameworks

kind of a ubiquitous word raise your

hand if you've heard someone mention a


today yesterday yeah most of you so I'm

a researcher

I've noticed patterns and behaviors and

those kinds of things I noticed that at

least 50 percent of presentations

mention the word framework and they were

all used very differently so by way of

introduction let's put some specificity

around this ambiguous term

how are we defining Frameworks how are

you thinking about them Theresa we'll

start with you sure I'll kick things off

so how I really look at defining a

framework is putting a process together

that can really bring a team together

and really create that Synergy to be

able to implement any concept or any

style that you're looking to adapt at

your organization

yeah Ryan yeah I see uh a framework is

really just a set of guidelines

something that you can use to help

organize prioritize figure out what you

need to get done but also understand

that I think a framework needs to be

just very flexible right and just easily

adaptable to change


and I agree with these two but also I'm

coming from the tech lens as well so

um I think of Frameworks in a number of

different ways of course uh if you're in

Tech right now you might think of a

framework as a JavaScript framework so

there's that approach but then there's

also the framework that I think we'll be

focusing on today which is more around

kind of the processes and making sure

that we have things in place to spark

Innovation make sure that we have the

creativity that we need to build and

design the things that we need to for

our users

Frameworks Alex what are you thinking

about it t row

um well for Tech we use agile on the

product development life cycle to build

on that and we also use agile on our

design side we use Double Diamond for

um for for design to kind of have that

Divergent thinking

um but that's kind of the main main set

that we use

yeah Ryan how about over at Priceline

yeah I'm probably a little bit unique

here and that I don't actually have a

favorite framework I think you need to

understand what what works best for your


for your brand and for your project and

and that becomes your framework

um we we are very agile

um we're also lean I could also argue at

times maybe there's a little bit of

waterfall depending on you know every

now and again there's a project with a

longer Runway and then maybe we become a

little bit more hybrid where we're

incorporating uh different Frameworks

but that's kind of how we work but again

like to me it's you know finding the

right thing for the for the situation

that you're in

and Teresa you just read a whole book

about this I did so talk to us a little

bit how you're thinking about this yeah

the two-hour experience absolutely um so

the book is called solving problems in

two hours and at trevipay we actually

have around 20 uh engineering teams that

we have supporting product in ux and

design managers uh really supporting

those roles and so obviously um this is

a really big framework we use so the the

framework is really a two hour design

Sprint so it takes the Best of Both

Worlds from design thinking and design

Sprint methods and allows your team to

really come together with the solution

in those two hours and I know a few of

you are going to be joining the workshop

on that tomorrow so I'm excited to see

you in that but ultimately with this

process we actually complete anywhere

from 20 to 40 to our design Sprints a

year and we have been for the last three

years so it's a really great framework

that we use and I look forward to

chatting more about that yeah so Ryan

Tracy you also have organizations and

teams under you I'm curious how you

organize people around Frameworks

yeah let me kick that off sure all right

um yeah so ultimately I talked a bit

about you know having 20 engineering

teams um at trevipay and um I'm uh

really happy to be over product ux and

design so that makes it a little easier

in terms of bringing the teams together

and working

um with the tech folks um like Alex and

his teams you know engineering different

companies but same same uh engineering

types so

um what I love about Frameworks in

general is bringing stakeholders

together across all those different orgs

to create that unity and create the

stakeholder buy-in so ultimately for me

why we Implement Frameworks at trevipay

and while it's easier to do that from

the product ux and design side

ultimately by Leading those efforts

you're bringing together engineering

orgs account management sales really

bringing together the entire

organization and your CEO

um with selling what you're trying to

solve as an organization to get more

customers or become more rapid at

prototyping or releasing features

whatever your goal is as an org

yeah so I guess I think of it more in

terms of my team

um so I really want my team to have the

autonomy to be the subject matter

experts for the for the projects and the

projects that they're working on

um and and how they work within their


they're doing because it works best for

that team but I try to put a framework

in place for my team that allows

collaboration that allows a good process

for reviewing work both Synchro

synchronously and asynchronously

um and then also knowing that they have

other teammates that are there to help

and support them when it comes to

brainstorming and you know coming

together for quick reviews so for me

it's more you know when I when I'm

thinking about

framework it's more about bringing a

team together to help make sure people

are in the right place to do the work

that is needed

yeah I mean the I come from a similar

approach is that we just want to make

sure that

we have enough processes to get the work

done we want to make sure that we're

getting the work done in the right way

but also quickly

um and so using agile and kind of the

having the different roles on that team

making sure that we're getting the work

done on time that's really key to us but

then also we have a lot of different

people that we work with our designers

are actually for our design system which

is my main focus are in London and so um

and we've got our developers in the US

so making sure that there's good process

around how we all work together and make

sure that we're constantly feeding into

each other's uh workflow is really

important so that's that's kind of how

we we tackle that

so our panel's on when to adopt a new

framework I'd be remiss in not asking

the question when what is the time in

which you were thinking about

introducing something new

yeah Theresa will start with you yeah so

I I really think anytime is a great time

but um especially now so

um we work in the fintech space at Trevi

pay where Global fintech we process 6

billion in transactions a year and when

I started at this org five years ago we

had five key competitors in the space

and the last three years we have over 45

so that's the time to implement a new

framework how can you really use a new

framework to be more competitive to get

more features out ahead of your

competitors or gain user adoption by

using the two hour design Sprint method

that I talked about earlier from the

book we are able to implement features a

lot faster and with that we've actually

increased our user adoption over 300

percent throughout the entire coveted

pandemic as well as increased our

Revenue 30 percent so those are ways

that we kind of use a new framework to

try and get ahead of the competition

build user adoption and really gain that

traction to get ahead of our competitors

and the fintech face and digging in a

little deeper there what is specifically

the framework or Frameworks that you're

bringing to the Forefront as you're

thinking about that competitive space

yes so uh we we really implement the

two-hour design Sprint method uh from

the book solving problems in two hours

so that really is the core method

however we are an agile shop

um you know we run lean we run kanban

um and really we Implement Implement a

lot of really great collaborative tools

so I'm a huge fan of figma and figma fig

jam and that cross collaboration allows

us to not just work in our U.S office

but we have teams in Australia the

Netherlands the US Dubai all over and so

ultimately by implementing that new

framework when you do that you need to

make sure that you are able to meet all

of your stakeholders across all over the

country as well as your customer so a

big part of the framework of those

haven't participated in a design Sprint

is you are validating what you are

putting together as a solution as a team

with your customers before you implement

it and then you're able to bring it

right into the agile cycle of your next

agile Sprint or kanban or however you're

pulling work down as a team

Alex when so when um well I think when

the current solution isn't working well

is probably when but um identifying that

is key and what we do especially on the

tech side is we'll have our

retrospectives and we'll talk amongst

the team and figure out what's going

well what's not going well and if

something's not

then we try to put in place some new

process some new framework that makes

sense for our team and of course that

may not make sense to another team

that's adjacent in their work but it

would work best for us and then we do

the same thing with design as a part of

the design system we have our technical

retrospectives but we also have

um on a lesser Cadence or

um not as often we meet with design as

well and try to make sure that we have a

retrospective there so that way our

Global process we know works as it


and take us behind the scenes a little

bit what does that look like something's

not working you can yeah well you need

to share anything confidential but give

us a little bit more about how that all

plays out sure thing so one thing that

we know it's just an example is that we

were lacking kind of in our ability to

innovate and having time to do that so

while it was in a named framework we

realized that we had a need to

consistently make sure that we had time

for that on the dev side so what we've

Incorporated is a a new process so that

way a single Dev will have a full eight

hour day every Sprint to work on

something that will improve the design

system and then once they're done with

that then they present it to the group

and then we work on either work on that

thing or recognize it as something that

we tried but maybe didn't work or maybe

it was just research that would help us

grow as a design system and so that's

that's just an example of when we

implemented uh the new process that

worked best for us but um hope that


yeah thanks

yeah I mean I agree I think you know if

something's not working and you're

completely stuck then maybe you have to


what you're doing and how you're doing

it but I also think

that with you know any framework any

process it's just really important that

you constantly take a look at that

framework or process and think about you

know what's working really well what can

we be doing better and what do we need

to change

because again they're not flexible and I

think there's always an opportunity to

revisit how you're working

and think of ways that it you know it

might work better in the night in the

next Sprint or in the next quarter and

just keep on reevaluating

I think though that

um and I agree with what you're saying

um it's important to have success

criteria for your current process

because if you don't know what success

looks like how do you know when to

switch right so

um I would suggest work with your teams

to best understand what that looks like

just kind of like you would do with a

definition of done

um make sure that you have that set so

that way if you're deviating from that

and you're no longer aligned with that

with what your success criteria is then

you know you need to adopt something new

I think you know just to add to that as

well um so I know that you know we all

hop on LinkedIn every day and we see the

number of layoffs that are happening so

you know there's a lot of Shifting in

teams going on and so and really

defining that success criteria knowing

that that criteria can change over time

too especially if you are having to

reduce your teams or shift kind of who's

working on different projects that's

also a great time to bring in a

framework when you are going through

something like that as an org and

bringing that type of framework in so

yeah so let's get a little spicy for a


um we've been around for a while some

Frameworks rise to fame some Frameworks

sometimes get pushed down

um thingy particularly of user personas

in the past few years there's really

been a lot of push against that and that

when I was starting out was the gold

standard of a particular framework that

you would use for research

um where's jobs to be done we heard a

talk about it yesterday also is kind of

risen it's a glory I'm kind of curious

what you attribute to these Trends in

the rise and fall of particular

Frameworks and then also what your take

is on PreSonus

well I'll start that off because I know

I'll have some fun debate on it so I I

love personas I actually have a few uh

ux team members here from trevipay so

I'm always going to talk positive about

that because they're here no I'm kidding

um so user personas really big fan we

actually integrate user personas at the

core of our framework at tribute pay so

we actually have uh really talented ux

team I'm not just saying that because

they're out there

um you know 20 to 30 user personas is

what we have across all of our products

and we update those every six months and

by doing that you know we are

interviewing customers constantly to

keep these personas up to date and make

sure they are non-biased that there are

no those of you join the accessibility

session earlier making sure that we're

really thinking about who our customers

are not just from what we know of them

one time and meeting them but really

continuing to measure over time and we

do a lot of on-sites to do this so we'll

go GM is a really big client of mine so

we actually just sent a couple team

members out on site and we were able to

kind of see what each Persona was kind

of dealing with in their day-to-day and

with that we take those personas and

every single user story we write you

know we're agile so we try to include

personas in everything that we're due in

every decision that we make with those

personas so

all right Ryan go at it yeah I mean

I do like personas right I can't say I

don't like personas I think

what I would say is historically and you

know in the span of 20 20 some years

I've seen a lot of personas created I've

been involved um you know even working

on the agency side where Brands come to

you and actually pay a lot of money to

have you talk to customers look at data

and create personas and you make them

and they look all pretty and then they

just go on a shelf somewhere right where

they go in a drawer it's kind of like

you check the box right you created a

persona but the Persona wasn't

necessarily used so I think personas are

a great tool when they're actually used

properly and it's not a one and done

thing it's not going out and you know we

did personas and they're you know this

is you know Alex but whatever and this

you know and then it just sits there

right you don't use it you have to

continuously look at those personas and

figure out how they adapt and change

just like anyone's users do and your

customers do because I guarantee you

that they change what they need change

when they needed changes and that kind

of needs to live in the Persona right so

my issue isn't the it's not I don't have

an issue wrong choice of words

um you can have an issue

but you know I just feel like I've seen

them used improperly more so than used

properly and I think you know I think

when they're they're done right and

Brands really buy into it and that's the

other piece of it I think there's a

cultural thing yeah no that's funny you

know just to add that before we get to

Alex who might be adding more to what

you're saying uh so you know with

personas one of the questions um I got

asked just a couple weeks ago was hey

Teresa can you use uh user personas can

you use chat GPT to write user personas

for you and replace ux research

altogether so I got asked that question

on a live podcast uh last week and I was

like oh that's fun okay yeah let's let's

do this um so I I happen to have a

background in AI in natural language

processing so I built a number of text

analytics engines in my lifetime so I've

got a particular opinion on that and so

I said that's a really great question

and so here's how I look at chat GPT I

like chat GPT as an additional resource

to go build your user personas so you

could use it to go validate and right on

that podcast I was like well let's find

out I pulled up chat GPT right there on

the podcast and I did a search and I was

like chat GPT

um tell me what user Persona would be

for a buyer that's looking to get credit

for their business which is what we do

at trevipay so I just threw that in

there and sure enough you know Chad GPT

says here's your persona and it got

about 700 words and bullet points on

what that Persona would be but what was

missing was again this goes back to

validation for user personas if you just

put them on a shelf and you're not

validating them there's no value in it

so the same with chat GPT right if

you're not going and then taking that

and validating it and meeting with

customers you're probably not going to

get a lot of value of it but so I think

yes Chachi PT can be used as an

additional research tool and yes if

you're just putting them on a shelf then

you might as well not do them because

you're not getting value out of them

yeah I think you know to the point of

chat gbt I think it also becomes

something that is going to become a

skill I think that most people are going

to you know need to learn how to work

with right because chat GPT is only as

good as the prompts that you're asking

it and I do think

you know I do think that there's an art

tasking the right prompts and then

getting those inputs and turning them

into something meaningful like chat gbt

is not a human right so I I think you

know having we don't know well that's

that's the one answering quickly every

time good point as far as I know at this

moment is not a human we might learn

something different next week

um but I think having it I think having

a human being look at what Chachi PT is

telling you and figuring it out you know

how to humanize what's coming out of it

I think that's where it becomes really

powerful and you know can certainly help

with personal work

yeah so they're just you want to go on

that thread for just a moment I think

chat GPT is really an interesting

product and uh has a lot of great use

cases but I heard it said once and I

love this phrase but it's um it's 100 uh

confidence but not 100 accuracy so

everything that we we do and we put into

it we also have to take a look at and

make sure that we're reviewing it at

least at this stage

um going into user personas though uh I

have a different perspective coming from

the text side but I'm also really

focused on Design Systems and of course

we have that kind of thing especially on

the design side when we're making sure

that we're making the right calls for

the designs that we're we're creating

but we can also take the same approach

on the tech side and we actually do that


um and it's a little bit less I guess

rigid in the way that we we go about it

but uh we have our own users we have to

make sure that our developers are being

taken care of our authors are being able

to actively and make sure that it's it's

very a strong experience for them when

they're authoring in the content on the

site because we actually create those

experiences for them and I hammer home

with you know the the folks on our

development team just how important that

is and so making sure that we're

constantly thinking about the user and

making sure that we have the right idea

of what they want is just really

important to the way that we build our

design system and then

um going beyond that we also do research

with our developers internally we

recently did

some research asking them what they

liked about the design system what they

didn't like about the design system how

we could improve and then that helps

feed back in to our informal if you will

user personas that we when we think

about how we cater to each of these

different users

so tell us about a time when a framework

didn't work

what is something that one of you tried

perhaps you had a great idea you were

trying to introduce some new framework

to a team and it just belly flopped yeah

um so I can start on this one so years

ago I worked at I worked at a company

and they trained everyone to work I

think it's called EOS I think it's


operational system something we'll just

say that that's what it is for the point

of this so but they trained everyone how

to work within that within that

methodology right and it was a way of

you know of tracking issues looking at

data understanding what people were

doing understanding where their problems

are and then every week you have

something they call it a level 10

meeting right so you have a level you

have a level 10 meeting with your team

and it worked great there right but it

was also part of the culture we were all

trained to use it but for me it was just

kind of became what I was used to

I left that job and I went somewhere

else and I was like well obviously like

this is how this team is going to work

right we're going to you know Implement

Els and we're gonna start having these

level 10 meetings and I got there

probably for about two months I was

trying to do this and like no one was

taking part right because this really

only works when it's collaborative and

everyone's kind of like giving inputs

right and and part of the actual process

and like nobody was doing it right and

what I kind of realized is like this

makes absolutely like no sense here

right there's probably much better ways

um to to you know think about process

and a framework for for how we all work

and kind of like Mario talked about

yesterday in terms of reading the room

right like I didn't do a good job

reading the room I should have realized

pretty quickly that that was the wrong

framework or the wrong approach

um to bring to bring at the time and

it's really you know like where are you

who are you working with talk to the

people you're working with and figure

out the best way to work within that



um So within the design system we had a

we used to follow a different approach

um where there was a bit of waterfall

effort going on on the design side and

then eventually that fed into Dev but

the designers they were focusing on

building the design system were at the

experience level based on the experience

needs and we found that that really

didn't work well for us because we

didn't get the holistic view of how an

individual component should work across

all of these different experiences and

so we ended up having to change the way

that we worked and we're now moving much

faster and we have a much better and

more um thorough set of components just

the way that they eat like the behavior

behind each one of them and make sure

that they have all the features it's

much clearer for us to understand

I'm glad you talked about

so it's not going to shock you to say

you know what you going to hear me talk

about the process we moved to a two-hour

design Sprints but for those that don't

have the history of design thinking or

have ever been in that it's very similar

to a waterfall approach right so I know

there's someone from Stanford here which

I was talking to them earlier about you

know how much I love the Stanford design

thinking process so the Stanford and

Ideo design thinking processes really

took months to years like waterfall to

really come up with a solution and then

Implement that with your release you

know then comes 2016 Jake Knapp the team

at Google Ventures you know they created

the five day design Sprint and so how

the two hour design Sprint method even

ended up coming up you know besides the

covid-19 pandemic really giving up a

help lift there with everyone going


was really being able to move quicker so

we had a really big five-day design

Sprint failure so the concept was on

creating a new I talked about chat GPT

so for the most part it was kind of a

dashboard that would automatically

provide action for users that went to it

and told them what to do do like chat

GPT would do I wish that would have been

around that would have been maybe my

solution I'm kidding so with that you

know the dashboard concept we ran a

five-day design Sprint we put the

prototype in front of users on day five

and they're like this is horrible like

I'm not going to use this

um so we ran two more design Sprints

spent over a hundred fifty thousand

dollars bringing in a third party using

this five-day model and so ultimately

that that failure allowed for Innovation

and creativity to find better methods

and the two hour design method didn't

come you know for a little bit further

but from there we reduced down to four

days three days two days one days in no

matter like what you kind of take out of

that if you're running design Sprints at

your org you don't need a full five days

to figure out whether the solution is

going to work for your users and if you

could find that time sooner whether it's

two hours or one day you could be able

to understand whether you have the right

solution to move forward so so that's

what you should take away from those

failures failures really help innovation

in my opinion so absolutely okay final

question for me and then we're going to

open it up to the audience for a few

questions so start thinking what is one

top piece of advice you would give all

of us that are starting to think about

adopting a new framework

one succinct thing that we should keep

in mind

I think my advice would be go for it I

mean you have nothing to lose I think

that sometimes we go into new Frameworks

more risk averse and if you're not

taking those risks you're not going to

be able to accelerate above your

competitors it is such a saturated

market right now there's layoffs going

on now is the time to take risks and be

able to create that Innovation and

facilitate that creativity with your

team so my advice is just go for it try

all the Frameworks and do what works

best for your org and you'll be

surprised by that and also try try the

two hour design Sprint method no I'm

kidding good good right yeah I mean I

think something similar I'd

uh don't be afraid to break the rules

right like there's no rules when it

comes to framework and don't be afraid

to try new things failing is okay

but you know the important thing is

thinking about what you need to get done

and figuring out the best way to do it

despite what you know any particular

framework or process or methodology

might tell you is the right thing

yeah and I mean I think it's good to do

your research take a look at what

industry Trends are out there but even

if it works for one company it may not

work for your company or even your team

within a company and so I just take a

look at what your own requirements are

and what what problems you're trying to

solve there may not even be an existing

framework that fits the need that you

have and so you might have to come up

with something on your own you could

promote it on a talk if you want to but

um but yeah that's that's what I would I

would suggest yeah


a few minutes left for any questions

from any of you

see some good hands can we get the mic

uh that thing yeah

I think it's dangerous all right there's

a question here I think

yeah okay


here we go

oh so close


football whatever thank you that was

amazing the throw also the funnel um oh

my God I had I had my question somewhere

now where are they Sorry here they are

okay I had two questions thank you very

much I had two questions uh first of all

uh we're throwing some buzzwords here

can you break down high level the

two-hour design Sprint because I heard

it many times I don't know what that

means so that's one thing and then I

have a question for you as well okay

um yeah so with the two hour design

Sprint process so most of you are are I

assume maybe what this have been exposed

to a five-day model where you're

breaking down five stages so uh the two

hour design Sprint model focuses on like

understanding our users and problem and

then really uh going through there and

being able to ideate solution so it

breaks it down into a three-stage model

um and since you ask a question if you

come find me I'll I can send you a an

ebook or can you a book because I love

that you asked a question about it um

but ultimately what you're doing is

you're facilitating that process that

went from five stages down to three and

you're coming up and you are even

sketching at the end of the this two

hours and ideating as a group on what

you could solution and for those that

are participate in the workshop tomorrow

we are going to be doing this exact

exercise you'll be participating in a

two-hour design Sprint so you can see it

firsthand but um yeah if anyone wants to

find me you know I'm happy to um pass

that along another question from Ryan we

talked about breaking it

but I'm trying maybe this is working


um really quickly so adapting a new

framework requires governance

and requires process on morning

um I wanted to ask you about

case-by-case basis and who you should

who you should partner with when you try

to copy this new framework without

burning too much time or effort on the

governance side right who would you

recommend to partner with

yeah so from the user designer 100


um and and product management find a PM

find a developer and I think that that's

the right starting point

scale though but I'll come up with that

later all right

thank you so much hi uh so I'm Lindsay

from Priceline uh great great talk

everyone the question that I think was

occurring to me and it sort of Echoes

Amanda what you were talking about with

personas and when they sit on a shelf

and they're not used what do we do I'm

just sort of curious

um you know many of you echoed the

importance of that cultural buy-in for

new Frameworks we have a lot of

different types of roles sitting in this

room and online and what I'm really

curious about is what tips or advice you

would give to the the sort of larger

group let's say they have identified the

problem they think right there might be

a framework that they can either use as

is or adapt how would you guide folks

into thinking about how to position that

within the larger organization and

really leading that charge

I didn't know if that was a plug

question should I let you go I think she

okay I'll take it I'll take it press

line you know

um she knows where to find me okay uh no

that's a really really great question so

uh ultimately in facilitating that

stakeholder buy-in um that's really

number one right so that's really where

that model whether you're running a

two-hour design Sprint a five-day or a

workshop anytime you're able to bring

together a group of stakeholders across

departments to collaborate together

that's how you build the buy-in so I

actually that's why when I mentioned we

use about 20 to 40 of these a year at

trevipay we're not just doing that for

fun and to get things out the door we're

also doing that to get that buy-in and

this is especially important if you are

in a large organization we have around a

thousand employees or a startup you know

that's just got a handful because they

each have their different challenges

right in a large organization you have a

lot of different stakeholder groups

varying opinions and interactions with

customers and so if you can use a method

like a two hour or five-day design

Sprint or a workshop you can use that

opportunity to kind of understand where

each department is coming from and bring

everyone together as the moderator in

that solution and so and then when you

get ready to have the solution you now

have all these cheerleaders behind you

that are ready to go and excited about

that solution so that's what I love

about that

so one question I would ask real quick I

know we're out of time but did Trevi pay

always have that culture of

collaboration no

we did not we did not always have it

it's been a challenge but this this

method in really just that nature of the

diverse collaboration that we have with

figma fig jam and all the in-person

hybrid events has allowed us to kind of

build that up so I really do think that

ux in a culture of design thinking and

design Sprints has allowed us to build

that culture that I really think is a

thriving culture and you know why we're

here today right we're excited to talk

about it so that's great yeah

alrighty we're at time let's give our

panel a round of applause thank you so